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65 Classic 327 V8 M-/10 no reverse.

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Kamikazi02 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kamikazi02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 65 Classic 327 V8 M-/10 no reverse.
    Posted: Mar/21/2015 at 3:16pm
Help needed in Germany, 

I am stationed in Germany and Have my 65 Classic 327 V-8 3sp Auto that for some reason has decided to loose its ability to back up. Pulled the car out of winter hibernation and took it for a drive to work and noticed the reverse was slow to engage.   Skip to today when I was adjusting the brakes and started to drive put it reverse and had to rev the engine to get it to actually go into gear. 
Got it home tried to back into the garage and no bueno!!!!Dead

Back story and facts, 

-Tranny was rebuilt less than 5K and has not had any issues until after sitting this winter. 
- Pan started leaking a had to replace, Thank you German Road Inspectors!!!!!Angry
- I replaced the pan gasket and put in the only fluid I could find, Mobile Multi Vehicle ATF Synthetic Blend, states its good with Dexron 
https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/multi-vehicle-atf 

Now I have car back in garage and when I put it into reverse I get no action....   Ideas and Help needed, I have TSM and basic tools around. 

Could it be rear band adjustment?   Could I be just plan screwed.Cry Not a lot of classic car mechanics in Europe that even have a clue on Ramblers, The closest thing we have are the inline 6 sold in France as a Renault... 
Below the rebuild invoice, Rebuilt in 2001 Less than 5,000 on it....

REMOVE AND INSTALL TRANSMISSION 335.00 
OVERHAUL/REBUILD TRANSMISSION 562.50 
BANNER ASSEMBLY SET 239.27 
FILTER  17.00  
FRONT PUMP BUSHING 19.63
EXTENTION HOUSING BUSHING 23.78 
FRONT BAND   129.95 
REAR BAND 129.95  
ATF2 AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID  45.00 
F2X TORQUE CONVERTER 195.95
 SIDE MOUNTS (CROSSMEMBER)  87.00 
S/H SHIPPING/HANDLING MOUNTS  26.67 
 TRANSMISSION MOUNT  48.00 



I will pay for meal and beer if you figure out a way to Fly to Germany to fix it. Beer

Todd 
Todd D Weingeroff
1965 Rambler Classic 770 Convertible, AC/PS/Auto 327 Pics located http://photobucket.com/65Convert770
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greasygt III View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greasygt III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2015 at 4:58pm
    Might be a dumb question but....does it have the proper amount of fluid?
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1970390amx View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1970390amx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2015 at 6:08pm
Did this problem start when you changed the pan because of the leak? And as has been asked is it full? I assume all three forward gears work correctly. If it is full and all three forward gears work I would check line pressure with a gauge it should be higher in reverse than in driver or neutral. You should have a service manual for accurate numbers. If you have good pressure numbers I would suspect a rear band problem. Could be out of adjustment or broken, could also be a problem with the servo that controls the rear band.
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Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2015 at 7:38pm
Try and find a shop that does work on classic Volvos or Jaguars. They used Borg Warner automatic transmissions that are very similar, if not the same as your Rambler's.
‘66 Marlin, 327/M10
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Kamikazi02 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kamikazi02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 5:35am
Update, I have been reading the internet in is entirety trying to find info on if this is the BWM10 or the M8  I saw FARNA state its an M8 and there is no such beast as an M10. SO with this info I started sniffing around the Jaguar forums figured I might have a chance of finding a Mechanic that knows them a bit.  Finding out Germans are not a fan of British cars here either!

TO respond to a few of the questions asked. 

-After the gasket was replaced it drove at least 1K with out issues.  I validated the fluid level and found it was over the full mark by about a .5 inch when operating at temperature.  I drained the excess fluid by way of removing the filler tube and getting a level just under the full mark at temperature. No change in  in operation.  (Fluid is correct)
 - I read on the Jag forums that if the Low gear doesn't work but the rest of the drive gears work then it is the rear band... Well tried that and all work, 2-1-L  all work when put into gear. 
- Started car this AM when it was cold tried all these test again just to see if it was different when warm or cold. No change.

I do not have pressure gauges or even have a clue on how to make them work, I guess that's the issue for an mid 30's IT guy in the Air Force. No Gray Beard (not insult) Mentors in classic AMC's around for the last 15 years :(   

SO far than you all for your advice, Looking at the Rear band adjustment as my best hope. Need locate a shop that might have the special tools to get to the adjustment with out removing the tranny....

ANy other test you guys can think of? 

One other, The linkage going from the column to the tranny has a bad washer at the end connecting to the lever on the tranny. I think this may be the correct part, 
http://americanpartsdepot.com/TransmissionShifters2.htm#p9708800a

Just wanted an extra set of eyes on it. 

Todd


Todd D Weingeroff
1965 Rambler Classic 770 Convertible, AC/PS/Auto 327 Pics located http://photobucket.com/65Convert770
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SensibleSpectaculars View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SensibleSpectaculars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 7:33am
For what it's worth here's what the diagnosis chart in the factory TSM says to check for a no reverse condition:

(On car without removing pan)
1. Check oil level
2. Check oil pressure
3. Manual linkage adjustment
4. Rear band adjustment
5. Inspect governor

(On car after removing pan)
6. Remove, disassemble, and inspect rear servo
7. Oil tubes missing or damaged
8. Remove control valve assembly and inspect for loose screws, replace control valve if no defects

(Bench overhaul)
9. Sealing rings missing or broken
10. Rear clutch slipping, wory, or faulty parts
11. Rear band worn or broken

As others have mentioned a number of British and European cars (such as Jaguar and Volvo) used essentially the same transmission for years so if you can find a 'greybeard' type shop they may have the experience to deal with it.

I'm trying to remember the details, but back in the day it was common for these transmissions to lose reverse gear. As I recall it was caused by a condition where there would always be some pressure going to the rear servo (even in forward gears) causing the rear band to burn out, and the "fix" was to drill a small hole somewhere to relieve this unwanted pressure. (Details are hazy, I'm going by a half-rememberd decades-old memory here.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kamikazi02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 10:49am
If you can find the info on this mod it would be huge! this is the second time for this to happen to me last time i moved to Korea and spent a year trying to get it fixed it lasted 5K and the guys who rebuilt it has retired and not reachable.

Todd
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1965 Rambler Classic 770 Convertible, AC/PS/Auto 327 Pics located http://photobucket.com/65Convert770
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SensibleSpectaculars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 12:17pm
My own memory of the mod is dim due to the passage of time, but looking through some of my saved stuff I found this 2005 posting to the AMC mailing list:

Quote
There was an ATRA bulletin years ago that called for drilling a .030" hole in
the rear servo piston to relieve any pressure that wasn't supposed to be there.
We used to do that to all aluminum BW's, it did save the rear band.


Before doing that kind of surgery to your own transmission I would check first to see if looks like that's the problem, see if the rear band is burned out. With the trans being recently rebuilt I'd be surprised if that were the case. (Then again if the misdirected pressure is due to valve-body wear that might not have been addressed by the rebuild.)

A good source of technical information for these transmissions is Northwest Transmission Parts. When I needed seals for my M8 they were not only able to supply the parts, but detailed installation info.


Edited by SensibleSpectaculars - Mar/22/2015 at 12:39pm
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Rogue401 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rogue401 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 1:36pm
When my dad had the transmission shop when I was a kid, I think the most common fault was the seal on the reverse servo? Especially when cold in upstate NY the seal would get hard and leak. Sometimes crack and then no reverse. He had this super additive he put in everything first that was made out of whale oil. I doubt you could find that anymore, but there may be something comparable now. The other problem was the band breaking near where the servo engaged.

And I do remember him drilling the hole in the rear servo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kamikazi02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 2:00pm
Thanks for all the advice, Now I only need to find a shop that can work on it!

If anyone else has advice, or a write up on the  M-8 or a better rebuild guide than the TSM it would be helpful as I might be taking it to someone who is not very proficient with English ...
Todd

Todd D Weingeroff
1965 Rambler Classic 770 Convertible, AC/PS/Auto 327 Pics located http://photobucket.com/65Convert770
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