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59 Rambler Cross Country Wagon - Tube and Shaft

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Rustymopar View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 6:34pm
Let me start out by saying I ordered the repair manual today.

I went to move the car the other day and in first gear, I started to let the clutch out and started to pull forward when something gave out and it stopped moving. I tried all of 3 forward gears and reverse. I thought I could hear something spinning inside the tube.
-Ive unbolted the tube from the rear
-Unbolted the font several bolts from the tube to trans (but not the 2 large ones on the front that run through the connection point of tube to trans
-I've removed the rearend cover and nothing looks unusual.

I can't seem to get the tube off to see where the failure is.
Any help would be appreciated until I get the manual.

Also - is there any good reproduction parts websites? I need a new fuel tank.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 11:15pm
start from scratch...

jack up one rear wheel (both would be safer). with your foot on the brake,put it in gear, let your foot off. does a rear wheel turn?  if so, let off throttle, press brake smoothly... does it make bad noises? foot on brake, accellerate in gear, lightly: does it groan (brake in gear)? or rpm increase and a funny noise (axle spinning in the hub, stripped splines)?

don't make it complicated, you can debug from First Principles, knowing how it's supposed to work, and how the parts work together.

'open' rears (not Twin Grip, aka limited slip) when both wheels jacked, in gear, and at idle, often one wheel goes forward, the other backwards. it's simply how differentials work.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 11:39pm
If you have a gas tank, it can probably be repaired and sealed.  One of the Gas Tank Renu franchisees can probably help.  Also one vendor you can contact for information is Galvin's Rambler Parts, now located in Klamath Falls Oregon.  They have a contractor who uses a similar process to the Gas Tank Renu franchises.   Galvin's has a website at www.ramblerparts.com. ; Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rustymopar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 11:47am
thanks for the help. I already jacked it up. Removed the rearend cover, and removed the shaft tube bolts front and back. I guess I can put it all back together and see if anything spins. But being that I could hear something spinning in the back of the car which I assumed was the shaft inside the tube. I could hear a hum in all 3 gears and reverse but no movement when it was on the ground. 

While it’s jacked up I did turn one wheel and the other wheel went the opposite direction. That leads me to believe it’s not the axle and in the tube? 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rustymopar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 4:09pm
So put it all back together. It seems the driver side rear wheel has a lot of play in it. It also doesn’t spin so I’m thinking that axle is shot. I will pull the wheel and hub assembly off tomorrow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/25/2019 at 7:16am
I was about to suggest a spun hub. If you pull the hubcap off and put the car in gear, I bet you see the axle shaft spinning inside the hub on one side, probably the driver's side. Or jack that side up and see if you can turn the wheel by hand with the car in gear, park brake off. I bet you can! If not that side, then the other.

AMC used a tapered end axle with a but nut on the end holding the hub on. 59 probably doesn't use a key, I think that stared in 60, but I might be wrong there... may have started in 58. If there is a key it's just there to make sure the hub goes back on in the same spot. The axle shaft end has fine splines. A brand new hub has NO splines, but is a softer material than the hardened axle shaft. When installed the first time the axle shaft splines make an impression inside the hub, which "mates" the two parts for life. When the hub is removed to change the outer axle bearings or seals it must be put back on in the same position on the same axle. That's why they started putting in the key -- earlier manuals stated to mark the hub and axle before removing, and apparently that wasn't always done. The nut is torqued to 250 ft/lbs.

AMC never specified a re-torque interval for the hub nut. Cars were (still are?) designed to last about 10 years or 100K miles. It wouldn't need a retorque in that interval. Much over that and the axles bearings or seals may need replacing, and the hubs would be retorqued then. Well, now we have a lot of cars that are 50+ years old, and some have never had the seals or bearings replaced, or they weren't properly torqued when they were replaced (no proper wrench that reads that high, or don't have the spec, so tighten as tight as you can and go...). The axle end does stretch a very small amount over time due to being under pressure. It's so very small, but time and vibration eventually takes its toll, and the hub can spin. So I always tell people to retorque those axle nuts if they don't know if it's ever been done. Every 20 years/100K miles should be sufficient, whichever comes first, for a mostly stock car normally driven. There are some drag racers still using the original type axle. Some retorque axles every season, some every 2-3 years. Some not at all, but they aren't running as much power and/or running smaller (lighter) cars. Many racers replace with one-piece axle/hub units.

Now what do you do? If it's a stock motor cruiser you might be okay with putting a used hub on. since the hub and axle are mated once installed it's best to get a used hub and axle, install, then retorque the nut. But for light use a used hub should be okay. Finding a NOS hub that's never been on a car is pretty much impossible. you can call Galvin's and Blasers and see if they have one (Blaser's might!), but it isn't likely to be cheap if they do.

You can't re-use the old hub. The problem is 1) it won't push back on the axle far enough due to the threads on the end. 2) if you used a special washer to push it back further, you move the brake drum back into the backing plate as well, which causes binding.   I've heard of people doing it by modifying the backing plate (one guy got a spare backing plate, cut the center out of one and welded the center of the other on the inside... don't recall if the ~3/32" movement was enough or he needed a bit more with a spacer), but I think I'd try a used hub first. You can't build it up by welding as weld material is as hard or harder than the axle. A thin shim would have to be somewhat conical and probably not as strong as the original bond between axle and hub.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/25/2019 at 9:16am
I was going to suggest broken clutch disc or spun hub. I've had both.

If I had another spun hub I'd put it back on with a piece of shim stock cut to cover all around the axle, put it back on and weld it with a couple of good tacks. IMO that 196 would never tear that loose again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/25/2019 at 3:41pm
With a 196 that would probably work fine WITHOUT welding. I'd never weld it, but you did say TACKS, which could be ground off. Just don't think that would add any real strength, just like a key doesn't add much. More something that makes you feel better about it. I didn't think about the engine size/power.

If you do decide to weld (tack or otherwise) go ahead and replace the outer bearings and the seals first. Then you won't have to worry about disassembling for quite some time -- probably not as long as you own the car.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rustymopar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/30/2019 at 7:52pm
hello guys and thanks for the input. What I have figured out is that it’s something in the hub. I can spin the wheel hub with one finger however if I push it in roughly a quarter inch or less and turn the hub I can see the other wheel spin as well. It tells me there’s something broken in the hub. I took the nut and cotter pin off of the big threaded end of the axle however cannot figure out how to get the hub off. All of the brake components are removed. I am I supposed to use A wheel puller? I definitely feel like it’s something in the wheel hub or axle and very close to the hub. Is anybody near Maryland?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/30/2019 at 8:29pm
It's been so many years since I've had to deal with a spun hub. Once you remove the cotter pin and nut I thought it would just come off the axle. Maybe you have to remove the bolts from the backing plate but I doubt it. You could try putting the end link of a chain over a wheel stud with nut and give it a yank.
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