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199 performance build

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whalepirot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalepirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/28/2012 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by 72AMX 72AMX wrote:

Wasn't there an Indy Car in the late 60's using a 199 ci 6-cylinder AMC turbo engine
this one?

This display is at the NHRA Museum at Pomona (Ca) Dragstrip.


Sorry they're fuzzy.
1955 Nash Rambler 2-dr 302/AOD
'55 F100 ('84 Vette susp/pwr
'84 Shinoda Corvette 550hp 4+3
'89 BMW 735iL
'95 BMW R1100S (bike)
'99 ML430
'05 745Li
'08 Smart Cabrio
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HHaase View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HHaase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2013 at 6:35pm
Ok, been back at this one a bit since I'm starting the build on the car.  Mostly still planning on this one, probably won't start actually working on the engine for a few more months at the least, but doesn't mean I can't research in the interim.  I may have found an off-the-shelf parts combo that can work... but I won't know for sure until I can do some test fitting.  Probably try and pick up a couple old used-up pieces at first to confirm it all before buying full sets to build with. 

Using a later tall-deck 258/232 block, with a 199 crank, 4.0 rods, plus pistons out of a Buick 225 should give me pretty much what I need.   Not 100% drop-in though as the 225 pistons use a slightly larger piston pin.  I'm pretty sure though that a 4.0 rod can spare .0088" 

When my head clears from all the number crunching, I'll re-run the math to make sure this combo measures out ok and try to calculate compression numbers.  I'd like to hit around 9.5 or so, but there are too many other factors I haven't looked into yet to calculate it.  Next numbers I need will be the chamber volumes of the stock 258 head and 4.0 heads.

-Hans


Edit:
Ok, double checked the numbers.

Stock 258:   
Stroke 3.895, rod length 5.875, compression height 1.63 = total height of 9.4525"

De-stroked 199 concept w/buick pistons and 4.0 rods:
Stroke 3.0, rod length 6.125, compression height 1.835 = total height of 9.46"

We've got a winner! Now to calculate compression ratios assuming going from the 74cc 258 head to the 56cc 4.0 head.

-Hans


Edited by HHaase - Apr/07/2013 at 7:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HHaase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2013 at 8:17pm
Scratch the Buick pistons.  They're all dished, and heavily too,  which would give me compression in the range of 7.5 with a 4.0 head. 258 head would be even worse, down in the 6's.  Noooo thank you.

But at least I got the critical measurements I needed for having a custom piston set ordered.  

-Hans
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2013 at 8:23pm
The late model 258 (80 or so through 89) has ~65cc chamber as the 4.0L. The earlier sixes had bigger chambers. I'd contact Bulltear about pistons. They should be able to get you custom pin height pistons.
Frank Swygert

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HHaase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2013 at 8:43pm
Yeah, was going to look into them or Ross and such.   It's a decent change in the compression height, so it all depends on what they start from.  From a raw billet it shouldn't be a problem, from a forged or cast blank it may be too much variation depending on the shape of the blank.

-Hans
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amc67rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/07/2013 at 11:53pm
The CCs in the 225 piston are about 8CCs  from a Ertel  catalog. .8 CCs are on the average .8 in the compression ratio .
Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HHaase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/08/2013 at 3:50pm
Yeah, but are they actually available at all in that style?  The only 225 pistons I can find anywhere right now are the sealed power models, and you could use those as an ashtray with the dish on the top.  

-Hans
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amc67rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/08/2013 at 4:01pm
Every buick V6 I've seen ,225 & 231 have same style dish. My post should read 8CCs  not .8 .
Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/08/2013 at 4:31pm
When you get to the block, get one for a 87-90 Jeep Or 87-88 Eagle.

Those blocks have the flat side on the drivers side to match the flat side on a 4.0L head. no worries about the little triangular holes leaking or needing plugged, plus they come with an excellent cast aluminum, no leaks valve cover.

Does anyone do a forged 225 piston? if so the dish could simply not be machined, but that would probably be too easy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HHaase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/08/2013 at 4:45pm
Hmmm, didn't know that about the late 258 blocks.  Shouldn't be too hard to track down a 258 Wrangler either, they made enough of the things.

I've sent a couple e-mails to folks that advertise doing custom pistons for the 225 Buick and AMC I-6's,  haven't gotten any responses yet though.

-Hans
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