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199 Model 1931 Carb Questions

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/13/2019 at 8:59pm
OK well i guess i'm a party pooper! lol

i just read the entire thread again.

it's good that you got AutoLine to send you the correct throttle shaft that accepts that front-mounted return spring. it's a safety hazard without it.

if you are still unable to make it idle right, next time you have the carb off, see if the throttle shaft is loose in the body. it should not "rattle" or have excessive play. that will leak enough air at idle to prevent proper idle mix setup.

on nearly any carb, the idle mixture screw setting should be fairly "sharp" -- when you're close to the right mix, 1/4 turn too lean (screw in) will audibly drop the idle speed. (quarter too rich will be "softer" but should also drop idle speed.) i don't know the 1931's; but the mix screw should not be out more than two turns. if it is, that's also indicative of air leak.

on mine, the linkages around the two idle speed screws ("stop" screws, the left/front one with the big w3asher is all-warmed-up idle speed (speed, not mix) were wrong or bent. there's a little bent tang on the throttle lever that was striking the choke unloader (the lever with the weight towards the valve cover) and causing the choke to move and increase speed. it was hard to see and visualize. i had to bend the throttle lever to increase clearance. this should absolutely have been caught by even a modest rebuild job; operate the linkage to check for interference. sheesh.

i'm dismayed with AutoLine. junk quality.

i bought parts for my Carter YF from Mike's Carburetor. https://www.carburetor-parts.com/ i emailed them abourt the flat-accell-pump-rod Holley 1931; they have no parts for it. so i bought from Rockauto hoping i'd get a round-shaft carb, but instead this junker (already sent back).

Mike's is a small shop. quality all around. no bull. and no replacement parts for the 1931.  at least they didn't lie to me.


if you ultimately give up on this carb, there is a Carter YF with the right throttle linkage. it's a far, far better design, parts are widely available. the catch here is that the air cleaner for the 1931 will not fit. you'll need an air filter with a 2-3/4" opening. it's only slightly taller. i had to bend the choke stove to fit. 



Edited by tomj - Aug/13/2019 at 9:03pm
1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T96
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fisherwerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/19/2019 at 8:48am
Hi tomj,

Definitely not a party pooper. I see you've had trouble with the carb like I have but with me not being used to this carb at all I may have missed some of the slop you discovered on yours. I will definitely take some notes and check mine closer. Its definitely not a nice rebuild. I was unhappy with the quality right away. 

I used your instructions to tune in the carb but had to give up due to the alternator not charging. I just replaced that last night and started the transmission service. I think it just needs a couple more adjustments then I can see if its ready to move under its own power. 
1968 Rambler American 199
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 9:50am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

OK, you won't want to hear this but...

i too have a 68 american and the 1931 carb. i too bought a remain carb from Rockauto.com.

mine is total junk. the rebuild was an act of desperation on their part, assembled with the wrong parts and it doesn't work as shipped. its also quite unsafe.

here's the major flaws with mine:

* throttle shaft bore and/or throttle shaft worn to laughable state: i can easily stick a 0.032" wire between the shaft and the throttle shaft bore. it's so loose the linkage jams on the other end.

* assembled with the wrong throttle shaft; the replacement doesn/t have the built-in return spring on the non-working end of the shaft.

* the spring in the accellerator pump mechanism OPENS the throttle about 25%. it relies on the external return spring to fully close it. THIS IS UNSAFE. this is due to the lack of the return spring under the bowl.

* the bowl vent cap was missing.

* the choke unloader strikes the throttle lever, preventing it from fully closing the throttle plate. hence it "idles" about 1800 rpm.

* the throttle plate retaining screws were loose! and the throttle plate was cocked and also wouldn't close all the way. the loss of thos escrews down the manifold would nick pistons and bend valves, and the thottle would then be "wide open". THIS IS UNSAFE.

* throttle linkage (with all it's extra protuberances for other applications) was bent, causing the unloader striking above. clearly this wasn't tested at all.

* the idle mixture screw was corroded or buggered, and wouldn't set the idle, but with all the vacuum leak of the comically bad throttle shaft, it doesn't matter anyway.

i have photos and a video of the throttle shaft slop. no one competent would have stuck that together. it needs to be bushed, and it's not.


i'm sad swear words are blocked on this forum because they're all that apply to this carb. NO WAY i will ever use this rebuilder's junk again. (AutoLine from rockauto).

i agree it's a problem for this car. i'm not worried about originality, so i made a bracket to accept the twist throttle for an old Carter YF i've had around for 15 years or so. i think it's for a 72 Hornet.

it started, idled, adjusted right off. now i need to get a new air cleaner, it's a larger diameter opening, and the vacuum spigots are all different (i just plugged them).



ON TOP OF ALL THIS, and somewhat immaterial, the Holley 1931 is a crap carburetor, by construction design. bowl gaskets wet with gasoline are just stupid. yeah, i know better than Holley, as would any backyard mechanic. there's no reason for it, absolutely no advantage. and on an old carb, it's a fire hazard. the original 1931 on this car was seeping out the bottom of the bowl, slowly. it evaporares slowly, but when is dripping gas a good thing?

also it seems to have a very large bowl capacity; there's a lot of gasoline in there! by comparison a modern Weber has about one ounce of fuel in the bowl. this i'd just chalk up to old design, but coupled with the other deficiencies, it's just insult to injury.

no idea how well it operates. and i don't care. i'm throwing this one in the metal scrap pile and returning the "new" one to rockauto.

yeah i'm pissed off.



I HATE REMAN PARTS. Period. Perhaps Tom, you have read my rants about them, but having been in the business for over 4.5 decades, and having had to deal with reman junk - and having actually TOURED facilities.......... it's scary. I have shelves of carbs - some reman, and what they do to "make it fit xxx model" is sometimes funny, sometimes sad....... 
Same for reman alternators - I have  many dozens of alternators in my shop, many are "reman" from the past or even recent years and it's no bloody wonder people have to go through 2 or 3 to get one that works right. Wrong parts, stators patched up, paint over RUST, a mix of whatever bolts they had to hold it together. 
Some folks get really lucky and get a great reman part first time - maybe two or three times in a row, and swear by them - me, after having spent decades fixing problems caused by reman parts - I can't ever recommend them. Carbs are the worst........... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Fisherwerke Fisherwerke wrote:

Rock Auto's customer service was absolutely useless when I asked about the part problem. So I emailed Autoline themselves. They are sending me a replacement throttle plate so I can transfer the parts over. 


Rockauto never touches or sees most of the stuff they sell - if any of it at all. They are a seller - things are typically drop shipped from their suppliers. They also only go by what their supplier tells them. 
This means if a part is wrong but their supplier says it's right, RA says it's right and won't do anything. I could give two great examples - one a selector shaft seal for MOPAR automatic transmissions, another for the steering stabilizer for Eagle - Gabriel had the totally wrong part listed, it was huge, too long, too big around, just plain wrong, you couldn't make it fit with a torch and big hammer. It was WRONG. I told RA they sent the wrong part - AND I took detailed photos of the original and the crap they sent me - showing how it was at least an inch too long and couldn't possibly fit next to the cross member. No way - still, they said that's what Gabriel said was right, so I was stuck. Same on that seal - the seal they sent was the OUTPUT seal - huge compared to the selector shaft seal. 
See - Rockauto doesn't stock parts, they take their vendors parts list and put into their tree and when you order, they order and it's sent to you with an RA label. At least that's how they used to do business. They stocked nothing. It was started out of a garage. 
If THEY screw up it's usually good for you - you keep the wrong part and they send you the right part. But if it's a vendor problem, they will not make it right. 
They do sell some very good parts - brake parts if you buy the NAME BRAND STUFF - Bendix, Wagner, and certain others - but stay clear of the discount brands!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 10:05am
The whole replacement parts market is manufacturing junk. Evev OE replacement parts are packaged made in China. I've had to send some back for failure within a week. Sad when youre willing to pay up front in the hopes of doing it once only having to do it over. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Heavy 488 Heavy 488 wrote:

The whole replacement parts market is manufacturing junk. Evev OE replacement parts are packaged made in China. I've had to send some back for failure within a week. Sad when youre willing to pay up front in the hopes of doing it once only having to do it over. 
Amen. Even the OE parts from the dealer is made in china....Been there seen that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

I HATE REMAN PARTS. Period. Perhaps Tom, you have read my rants about them, but having been in the business for over 4.5 decades, and having had to deal with reman junk - and having actually TOURED facilities.......... it's scary


you won't get an argument from me. i was in the spot where i had a literally-unbuildable carb -- the flat-rod version -- and hoping to get one with a round rod. FAIL. i may do something creative with the metal parts, but it won't go on a car.

i stand by my assessment of the Holley carb(s), design-wise. the sideways bowl is a stupid unsafe design.

the Carter YF on now is just fine. haven't checked jetting yet. i will eventually.

1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T96
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/22/2019 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Rockauto never touches or sees most of the stuff they sell - if any of it at all.


they're a very modern thing -- the drop-shipper. it can be a successful business model.

i liken them to the giant corporate farmers in the California Central Valley -- they draw deeply from the "well" of scattered suppliers/warehousers/manufacturers of auto parts. they do a great job of coordinating/consolidating various parts databases (the best single-source cross-ref site ever!) and /most of the time/ do precisely what they claim to do.

but i think they are also sucking the ground dry. this sounds funny... but many of their prices are waaay too cheap. they're clearing out old-fashioned warehouses at a crazy rate. i really think we are going to have some serious old-car parts shortages very soon. i'm stockpiling like some crazy [Rambler] survivalist. no one reputable is making new brake drums -- period. wheel cyls can be relined (not cheap, but then they last forever -- assuming you can find cups), shoes relined, drums need replacement after one or two cuts.

a friend of mine that runs an old style repair shop spends half his time tracking down parts. some stuff is already scarce. we were grousing about it just this morning.

and yeah, carbs are the worst! subtle, delicate, very few people know how to _deeply_ work with them, or adapt realistic carbs to cars that need them.


Edited by tomj - Aug/22/2019 at 10:15pm
1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T96
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