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Project Odin Electrical Overhaul (1973 Javelin)

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304-dude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2018 at 4:41am
I am surprised billd did not state a comment about the fuses in your diagram. He is a stickler for details. Never use a fuse greater than 10% of the total load of the system. It protects more than the wiring and load itself.

I'd put a 135AMP fuse between the battery for charge and run a 60Amp fuse for stock wiring on a two or more terminal fuse block with what ever separate fuses are needed for other loads you may add above the factory options, like an audio amp and stereo.

A 150 amp alternator is not perfect. There is wasted current in its operation. On average a 150 amp alternator will produce about 135 Amos at best, and above normally used engine RPMs.

Your stock wiring cannot handle more than 60 amps total through it.

Now peeps may say what are you doing with 150 Amps? Well the only reason you should is if you need higher than stock current at lower RPM use. The current ramp changes drastically for high amp alternators.

The main difference between stock 35 amp vs a 55 amp one, is that you get more usable current at idle or just above idle, for police and severe duty use.

Yes it is nice to have a more simple and trouble free charging system, by upgrading to modern designs. But no system that can drop in is going to be 100% more reliable than stock.

The key with stock is the connections between battery, alternator and regulator. The old style connections are more open to the environment than newer modern types. Thus trouble spots that need cleaned and properly maintained time to time.

At the time of purchase, my 73 Javelin, back in 84 had only 10 years of daily use, but did not have its original regulator and alternator. After a few troubles with charging, i found that the alternator connections at the harness were easily contaminated and caused premature corrosion. Once corrected, i never had an issue. Just not so obvious as everything seemed simple enough, yet moisture and driving environment can do so much even in California where it ran 95% of its life.
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeeperJolene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2018 at 6:47am
Originally posted by 304-dude 304-dude wrote:

I am surprised billd did not state a comment about the fuses in your diagram. He is a stickler for details. Never use a fuse greater than 10% of the total load of the system. It protects more than the wiring and load itself.

I'd put a 135AMP fuse between the battery for charge and run a 60Amp fuse for stock wiring on a two or more terminal fuse block with what ever separate fuses are needed for other loads you may add above the factory options, like an audio amp and stereo.

A 150 amp alternator is not perfect. There is wasted current in its operation. On average a 150 amp alternator will produce about 135 Amos at best, and above normally used engine RPMs.

Your stock wiring cannot handle more than 60 amps total through it.

Now peeps may say what are you doing with 150 Amps? Well the only reason you should is if you need higher than stock current at lower RPM use. The current ramp changes drastically for high amp alternators.

The main difference between stock 35 amp vs a 55 amp one, is that you get more usable current at idle or just above idle, for police and severe duty use.

Yes it is nice to have a more simple and trouble free charging system, by upgrading to modern designs. But no system that can drop in is going to be 100% more reliable than stock.

The key with stock is the connections between battery, alternator and regulator. The old style connections are more open to the environment than newer modern types. Thus trouble spots that need cleaned and properly maintained time to time.

At the time of purchase, my 73 Javelin, back in 84 had only 10 years of daily use, but did not have its original regulator and alternator. After a few troubles with charging, i found that the alternator connections at the harness were easily contaminated and caused premature corrosion. Once corrected, i never had an issue. Just not so obvious as everything seemed simple enough, yet moisture and driving environment can do so much even in California where it ran 95% of its life.

I'm okay with 110%. From what I was reading from various electrical suppliers, they recommended 125% of the wire rating, but I like to be safer. 

In regards to the larger alternator, I'm going to be upgrading quite a bit, including replacing the mechanical fan and brass radiator with a Griffin dual-fan setup. Additionally, I'll be eventually installing a stereo system, so I'd rather go with a higher than stock alternator. I am going to be completely rewiring the car, so stock wiring won't be a concern.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mopar_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2018 at 2:13pm

"Hemilina" My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeeperJolene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 1:21pm
This is all good info. Quick alternator question: what difference does a baffle make on an alternator fan? Right now I'm looking at direct fit replacements for the Motorola and a few brands offer both with and without a baffle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 1:57pm
If you plan on high current at lower RPMs the baffled fab will move more air through it for cooling. I think all 2000 on up alternators have dual fans. One up in the front case and the other in the rear case. In the past 10SI had the improved heavy duty fan for police and HD systems, but as time went on, newer designs allowed more efficient and smaller packages, so incorporating a push / pull fans for heavy duty use or high current under low RPM will keep thermal runaway from effecting the electronics efficiency, causing premature failure under load.
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeeperJolene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 2:06pm
I saw a post where billd mentioned that a 10SI would actually be less output than the Motorola. I've spent hours reading up and while you guys have fully convinced me to stick with the three-wire setup, I am completely lost on what to buy. I was trying to avoid fabricating brackets and sticking with something that is an exact fit, but I'm starting to think that is impossible. 

What alternator do you guys recommend (at least 100 amps) and does the company make brackets for them to fit the 360? I am going to be adding more electronic items (but keeping it looking stock), which is why I'm aiming high for amperage. I know the Motorcraft 3G series was mentioned, but from what I was reading online, they are mostly rebuilds and not new.

Edit: Also want to mention again that I plan on having dual electric fans on the new radiator, so that will be a decent draw.


Edited by JeeperJolene - Feb/17/2018 at 2:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 2:22pm
There is a 75 to 78 V8 aluminum bracket setup and a late Jeep Sanden A/C bracket setup to allow use of GM alternators. I think but feel Billd may know better... The CS130 may fit with minor mod to the CS130 case.

It's been a long time, but one of our regulars has the aluminum cradle bracket setup, and may have more info on what Alternator he is running.

I have a modified Ford police alternator rated at 145 amps, only because I am using a 15% under drive pulley. The police version is 15% over driven for high current at idle.

With a 50 amp alternator being under driven, city driving would not charge my battery, unless I go about in first gear and keep my RPMs above 2000 at stops, and probably over heat in the summer.
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 6:01pm
I understand the desire for an internal regulator - fewer wires from engine to chassis - but you may find a setup with an external regulator mounted on the alternator.
I'd have to research current offerings other than Motorola but I know they did that - the regulator was mounted with the brushes right on the back side of the alternator.

I'm not sure about the baffle you mention - I'd have to see what they consider a baffle.
Keep in mind alternators pull the cooling air IN at the BACK, and pull it forward and expel the air through the fan at the front. 
When I have one mounted on my test stand and spin it up if I haven't warmed my shop up much I get that air blowing right at my face out the front of the alternator. And they really throw some air - at least the Motorolas do...... and the LATER GM would. The early GM models didn't cool so well as their later alternator models did.

I'll have to see what the other makes offer right now - especially something that will fit without having to cut out the fender and slide the engine over to fit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeeperJolene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 8:44pm
I think my biggest concern with an external regulator and alternator would be the availability of parts, especially on the road. It's still working enough right now, but the old wires are extremely sketchy.

Bill, I grabbed your picture from the wiring thread and marked it for what I can see/trace under the hood in my Javelin:



I'm actually a little confused here with how they wired it. The TSM wiring diagram actually shows the yellow wire coming from the regulator to the pink wire, then the pink wire to the coil (assuming I actually grabbed the correct TSM scans). The PO has the HEI ignition spliced directly with the solenoid and the regulator.

Regardless, Here's what I'm thinking it will look like when I'm done with the alternator upgrade:



The wiring from the ignition switch is pretty bleh so I'm going to need to do some fun there soon. Am I on the right track here or did I mess this up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2018 at 9:39pm
Ah but internal regulator isn't equal to modern and modern doesn't mean internal regulator. I can get parts for the alternator on my 4.0 in my Eagle pretty much anywhere - in stock, and yet it's externally regulated. (It's regulated by the PCM)
Yeah many pre-computer are internally regulated, but not all. Since the advent of the computer controlled ignition and injection some have moved regulation out to the computer.
Depends on the car maker............
And the nice thing about my alternator is that if the regulator function of the PCM ever dies I can simply rig in a MOPAR regulator to get me going again. 
Actually, many alternators can be regulated by a $14 MOPAR regulator. (including Motorola with a simple modification but you'd lose the light function)

HEI needs full system voltage, not run through a resistance wire or ballast, as you likely know. I'd keep it on a distinct feed, not combined with anything else. So that means neither diagram would be correct.  Even the bottom one shows feed going through the resistance wire, then to the yellow at the starter solenoid/relay. 
When in normal running mode power comes from ign switch, through resistance wire and then to the yellow - when cranking the starter relay/solenoid powers that yellow wire directly, bypassing the resistance wire. So you shouldn't take the HEI feed off the AMC yellow as it has the resistance wire feeding it except during cranking. 

I'd remove the HEI from that circuit and feed it from a different ignition source otherwise it will be fed through the resistance wire. 
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