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1963 classic aluminum 196 |
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 9:32am |
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Is the recommendation to swap the engine based on an assumption that the block is also damaged? So far I've had the head checked but not the block.
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farna
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Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7106 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 10:34am |
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Try FINDING a good aluminum block head. The AL block uses a different head, the standard 196 OHV head won't fit. Make SURE you're getting an AL engine head! Unless it's NOS have it checked for cracks before using. You may have to go through several before you find one without cracks. If you buy one off e-bay ask the seller if they will guarantee it not to be cracked -- will accept a return and refund of all but shipping if it 's cracked (can't expect them to pay shipping). I'd see if they would take it to a machine shop and check it, even PAY the bill (after checking with a local shop to see what the cost should be) if they will, and get a written note from the shop that it's not cracked. Hard to make a call on that, they may be dishonest and write something on a shop receipt (or make one up on the computer) and send it... it's possible!
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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raysinvegas
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Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Las Vegas NV Status: Offline Points: 1620 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 10:47am |
Some people will tell you to trash a 196 even if it is a good running engine! I'd go ahead and buy the NOS head from Ebay.
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Andy Ray
64 440H 64 440 Convertible 68 Javelin SST 343 69 Javelin SST 343 69 SC/Rambler
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farna
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Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7106 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 7:42pm |
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The 196 is a good engine, good enough for a cruiser anyway. I ran one for 14 years. Parts started to get hard to find and expensive. You can get most of what you need over a couple business days. I used mine for a daily driver and occasionally that meant long trips -- 8 hours + one way 2-3 times a year. The last time I needed a water pump it took me almost two weeks to get the right one. If that had happened on one of those long trips it would have cost me dearly! I'd have waited a couple days in a motel, then had to buy a bus ticket to go home (I was in the USAF at the time) AFTER finding a safe place to park it until I could come back a week or so later, and have to arrange transportation to get it and come back. In good weather I guess I'd have rode my motorcycle back to the car then rented a u-haul trailer to tow the bike back. In bad weather I'd have had to do something different -- maybe buy a friend gas and share a room for a night.
In any case, it would have been costly! That's why I decided not to run one any more. I might run one in a hobby car, would just be careful about long trips. To an AMC show would be okay, plenty help at the destination anyway! So a lot depends on what you intend to do with the car. Local cruiser with an occasional long haul to a car show? No problem. Daily driver, or one you plan on taking long trips with regularly? The 199/232 you can get parts for -- often on the shelf. That last water pump I had to send in my core and have rebuilt to get the right one! |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 591 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 9:55pm |
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jt, it depends on what you want -- complete restoration? really love the idea of the aluminum engine? willing to go through the additional hoops it will take to revive a rare engine? can you afford the parts, and the downtime? it would be totally cool with a sweet new aluminum six because they are increasingly rare.
in your spot, i'd also be reluctant to pluck it out, and raysinvegas is right, some people recommend that no matter what. i'm happy with my iron 195.6! however, farna's right too, the 232 will fit in a classic. FAR FAR easier to find parts for. Will bolt onto the existing transmission and all that. It's lighter, and more power, but not enough more to hurt the trans, and mileage might improve. (I did exactly that: my 63 classic wagon originally had the aluminum engine, it was pulled before i got the car though. i had to: get a 64-up crossmember, flip the radiator brackets, get throttle linkage parts, motor mounts, and probably some other minor stuff. That's the big chunks though.) it's not a black and white issue. |
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1963 American 440 hardtop
195.6 OHV, modded T-96 Twin Stick, 3.78 axle |
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Mar/22/2012 at 11:29pm |
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All,
I appreciate all of the comments. You've given me lots to think about! I've decided I am going to attempt first to get the original engine running. I say attempt because my budget is not limitless. While I am a novice, I've got a few things in my favor at this point: 1) a good engine shop nearby, 2) a local rambler club that I've contacted and seems willing to help, 3) a NOS head for aluminum block on ebay, and 4) I can take time to explore options because this is not my daily driver. If my aluminum block turns out to be no good (my first task is to determine if it's OK or not), then I will be looking for a cast iron 196, 199 or 232. Since my goal is originality and the car will not be used for daily commuting, I will aim first for the 196. But again, if I run into too many issues I may have to keep the 199 or 232 as an option. Time will tell... I'll keep posting updates. Keep the comments, suggestions coming...I'll take all the help I can get.
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huddy1955
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Joined: Feb/12/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 592 |
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Posted: Mar/23/2012 at 5:44am |
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G'day all.
My 63 Classic Wagon still retains it's original alloy block. My father purchased it around in 2001 I think from the grandson of the original owner. I remember well how the story went. My brother Jeff went to Newcastle with our father to inspect the 63 Wagon as I was working on that Saturday. It appeared to be an older minor restoration as the seats were redone as was the paint. All the chrome, drive line, dash and door trims appeared to be original. The car had no registration. They got the car running but only just.... it was missing and carrying on like a bomb. The auto transmission was slipping and it had no brakes. A deal was made and the following weekend we got the car back to Sydney on the car trailer. Newcastle is Approximately 200km north of Sydney. Jeff and I got stuck into the 63 Cross Country wagon. The basics first. Compression test.....all good New points, rotor, leads, plugs, Oil- fuel- air filters. Oil change, flush and clean radiator and block, fresh fuel and a charged battery. This was all done in a few hours. The transmission was topped up as it was reading very low. Re bled all the brakes as the pads appeared very good. Once all this was done.... a bit of fresh fuel into the carby and we turned it over. It ran perfect, drove perfect and stopped ok. Only the kick down required attention and it still has not been attended too. Today the car still runs great and very little has been done to it since. Yes it's not the fasted car around but it is reliable and very fuel friendly. The 63 would get driven around 2 to 3 times a year and the registration is still kept up until recently. New full rego will be issued soon as it will be used to attend swapmeets to promote Rambler Spares. It will hopefully have new Rambler Spares decals on the rear sides and back windows along with NOS parts in the back for display and sale purposes. Long live the alloy block almost 50 years of great motoring. Steve Fripp Rambler Spares |
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Mar/23/2012 at 3:10pm |
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photos...
https://picasaweb.google.com/102797355696128691656/March232012 - https://picasaweb.google.com/102797355696128691656/March232012
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 591 |
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Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 10:42pm |
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Well jt your plan sounds eminently sensible.
those bores are pretty crapped up, but if nothing's broken likely it will clean up. If you have a good shop, you're in luck! In your case a full teardown and boil-out is probably worth it; the boil out might cost $100 but worth every penny (and required for a rebuild anyhoo). I think you said you're a novice at this? that's not a liability necessarily -- be methodical and RTFM (and buy TFM aka TSM :-). Ziplock bags, a sharpie, digital camera, be methodical, ID what parts came off what and where... On stuff this old it's even worth saving old gaskets until you have their replacements. Likely you'll pitch a lot of galled washers etc, but save 'em for now. Measuring the bore diameters with a micrometer will tell if it's been rebuilt before; *every single* iron engine I took apart has been rebuilt at least once! Its not a popular motor, so people sell stuff on eBay sometimes at bargain prices. I got a set of Silvolite .060" over pistons for $40, new in the box. Stock up! Pushrods for the iron motor are slightly hard to find; but I am fairly sure the aluminum engine uses 232 lifters, and maybe pushrods. I really enjoyed building my iron version. |
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1963 American 440 hardtop
195.6 OHV, modded T-96 Twin Stick, 3.78 axle |
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jt
AMC Apprentice
Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Mar/25/2012 at 11:35pm |
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I made good progress today getting the engine ready to pull. I've been bagging and tagging pieces as they've come off the engine. I think I have everything off now except the connections to the drive train. I ordered a TSM over a week ago but it got shipped to someone else by accident so it's taking the scenic route via New Jersey.
I'm hesitant to go much further without the TSM, unless someone can explain in detail what gets unbolted next to someone that's never pulled an engine before.
Thanks, Jason |
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