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1963 classic aluminum 196 |
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farna
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Posted: Mar/17/2012 at 5:08pm |
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Sounds like the rings are gunked up and stuck. A couple hundred miles of driving might free them. If you have water in the oil (and you do -- milky!) then you either have a bad head gasket (very likely on this engine design) or a cracked head. Pull the head and have it checked for cracks before putting it back on. The head gasket may have just deteriorated over time, so don't give up hope yet.
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Posted: Mar/17/2012 at 6:06pm |
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Farna: I like the way you think! I'll do as you suggest and report back after I get the head back from the shop. If anyone knows of a good place in Portland, let me know.
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Posted: Mar/18/2012 at 7:35pm |
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The head is off! The head gasket was shredded. There is about 2 inches of milky crud everywhere. One pushrod is bent at the end at a 45 degree angle - the number 6 cylinder.
Since this is my first time doing this, I have lots of questions: - Anybody know a good machine shop in Portland? - What do I need to do with the block? Obviously I've got to clean up the mess. Are there any particular solvents I need to use where the gasket was (remember this is an aluminum block). Any easy way to make sure the block isn't warped? - Should I reuse the head bolts or is it best to buy new ones? - Are there any chores I should take care of while the head is off? Thanks, Jason
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pacerman
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Posted: Mar/18/2012 at 7:58pm |
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The bent pushrod was probably caused by a sticking valve which I think was reflected in one of your compression tests. You can just drain the oil and wipe down the surfaces that you can reach with shop towels. I've never had oneof the heads off of my aluminm engines either but you should be be gentle with those sealing surfaces. I would not recommend using any abrasives. Perhaps a dull putty knife and some patience. You could try some petroleum solvents or some MEK but wear respiratory protection. Anything that will help release the old gasket adhesive but won't corrode aluminum. You can reuse the head bolts. Clean them with a wire brush before reuse. I'd flush the cooling system too whenever it is convenient. Oh, and if you get those sealing surfaces spanking clean like you will want to do, you can use a straghtedge and feeler gauages to make sure the block is not warped. Joe
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: los angeles Status: Offline Points: 591 |
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Posted: Mar/18/2012 at 9:41pm |
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yeah, bent pushrods here is from stuck valves (most likely). so you have to ask, why did the valves stick? it's possible that they were just "stuck" from sitting for those years, and you bent it when you started it up.
Personally, I'd disassemble the head, valves and all. make very sure the gas in the tank is NOT OLD, remove it, do not attempt to drive it off. Gasoline doesn't seem to last like it used to. A plastic scraper should be OK on the block gasket surfaces. See if you can get a piece of 1/4" lexan, file/sand one end to a 45 degree angle, freshen up the edge occasionally. Keep in mind this is a half-century old, now, by all rights it ought to have a full tear down. If the "coolant" was plain water -- as is often the case on old motors with a worsening leak/headgasket problem, owners kept topping off the radiator with plain water til it died -- that bottom end could be corroded. You could get the top end all clean and sealed, and a few thousand miles later spin a bearing or something. |
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farna
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Posted: Mar/19/2012 at 9:57am |
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The sealing surfaces on top of the bores themselves are cast iron. You can use a light abrasive on those. The outer edges of the block are aluminum, but it's not a real soft aluminum. Scrape what you can off with a plastic scraper first. Won't hurt to go over all of the surfaces with a scotchbrite pad after the majority of the gasket is off. Don't use one of the real rough red colored ones, a green pad is all you need.
The milky crud is just oil and water mixed. I wouldn't use MEK, but any other solvent will be good -- plain old mineral spirits or paint thinner. Wipe what you can out with a rag first, then use solvent and let dry. The valves are notorious for sticking from sitting, especially after running new gas through the old tank. Gas with alcohol in it dissolves residue from older formulations of gasoline used over the decades. The resulting vapors get in the valves and condense. If the engine is regularly run there doesn't seem to be a problem, but if it's run a bit then sits up for a few months the residue sticks the valves. You may as well plan on pulling all the valves. Easy enough to do! Then clean the valve stems real good with solvent and a scotchbrite scrub pad. There's no way to get inside the valve guides short of using a drill bit the same size as the valve stem. Be careful if you attempt that -- you don't want to drill the guide out to a larger size. The guides could be replaced, but I'd be reluctant to go to that expense until I knew the rest of the motor was good. Take the tank off and clean it or have it cleaned before putting back in service. Easy enough to do! For now just hang a half gallon anti-freeze jug under the hood and run the fuel pump line into it. That will serve to get you running and even around the block a few times, but about three quarts won't take you more than about 15 miles (you don't want to fill the gallon jug all the way up!). I wouldn't worry too much about those old bearings. I've cracked a head and dumped a lot of water in the crank case before. The bearings were fine. If it wasn't run much after it started leaking water and/or the oil was kept changed they should be okay. Some modern bearings will quickly blister and deteriorate once exposed to water (GM aluminum bearings mainly), but those old ones hold up pretty well in that motor -- lots of bearing area and low pressure on them. Won't hurt to pull the pan and take a look, but I wouldn't be afraid to fix the head and crank it. As Tom mentioned, there could be a bottom end problem later, but the crank and rods are easy enough to come by -- will fit from a cast iron 196 (L-head or OHV). The head and block itself are the biggest concerns. |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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jt
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Joined: Mar/25/2011 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Posted: Mar/21/2012 at 3:50pm |
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Bad news...the head is cracked. The shop is recommending I bring in the rest of the engine to see if it's worth continuing work on this engine. Another option is to bail on this engine now and find a cast iron one to work with. I'll take any suggestions, condolences or free engines anyone wants to give me.
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tomj
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Posted: Mar/21/2012 at 7:51pm |
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sad, that's a bummer, but common enough (AMCs being econo cars people tend to drive them into the ground, and maintenance is usually abandoned).
Almost certainly, the engine was overheated, possibly severely. Frank will know more, but that block will need a serious looking-at by a shop equipped to handle it. It is an exotic engine at this point. The cast iron is old-fashioned, has some peculiarities, but it is basically an ordinary engine, and people here can tell you lots of tips on building one. It's your choice, whether you can afford the aluminum engine build, and have the patience to deal with the exotic. Iron engines are a lot easier to find. I got two free ones when I was readying to build mine, though i had to go get them with a little trailer and hoist. And both had been overheated one with a cracked head. One had been rebuilt once, and the other, i suspect. They rugged, long-lived old things. |
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farna
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Posted: Mar/21/2012 at 8:24pm |
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Your best bet is to ditch the 196 altogether at this point and look for a 65-71 199 or 232. It's just easier and cheaper to get parts for. It costs a lot more to rebuild a 196 than a 199/232. Everyting on the car now will bolt up. You have to swap the radiator brackets side to side and move the radiator forward a bit, but that's the hardest part. The 63 Classic was made with the 199/232 in mind, the engine just wasn't ready until late 64.
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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69 ambassador 390
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Joined: Nov/22/2009 Location: Grand canyon Status: Offline Points: 2610 |
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Posted: Mar/21/2012 at 8:43pm |
This may alreadt have benn suggested as I'm just now reading this thread. Aircraft paint stripper is your best bet for removing the gasket residue. It will release it easily and will not harm aluminum. They used to sell it at Autozone. Comes in a gallon can with a picture of an airliner on it. Body supply shops should have it also.
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Steve Brown
Grand Canyon, Az. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
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