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1961 American front suspension rebuild

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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 7:09am
So just make new tubular upper arms. It's a big deal to shorten the stamped arms as the angle change, so change the angles! You could then use a different inner bushing. I think you measured between the bar mounting holes and found that something like Speedway circle track bars/arms won't fit...

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-A-Arm-with-Cross-Shaft-Strut-Type-8-Inch,2117.html

I can't find the info right now, but there was someone converting a 61-63 front suspension to ball joints using either a Concord or Mustang II steering knuckle assembly. They were just cutting the ends of the original arms and welding plates for ball joints on. Only drawback to that approach is an arm has to be cut to change the inner bushings. They were putting new bushings in first, figured they would last 20+ years, worry about replacing then. One arm could be made bolt together though...
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/10/2018 at 9:33pm
what you posted is pretty much exactly what i'm talking about -- SPC makes a lot of that stuff and it's exactly what i'd use. poking around the old AMC stuff is interesting though, and if it were more or less bolt-in, i'd consider it, since i have all this stuff here.

but the interesting thought experiment isn't good practice. so for 2018 i'll do this rebuild with poly bushings, and start buying circle track parts to put the tubular system together.

the upper Ford pivot bar is as we discussed a while back only 1/8" too wide to bolt to the chassis, so milling/slotting the holes .0625 each side is no big deal. then it's all parts you can actually buy, new!

and i can dial in any camber, and caster! i want. and if i make a misteak, i can fix it. amazing.

for now, stock.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2018 at 5:26pm
slight digression here --

i realize that the work i'm doing is morphing into FrankenRambler territory, or at least not "repair/restore" territory. much of it applies to that, but it's no longer my primary focus, mainly because i'm finding it impossible to maintain, given that some aprts are simply not usable/available (eg. rubber of any kind).

threads like this one are still "rambler" to me, in that by itself it doesn't change the character of the car.

i'd gladly take my non-repair/restore project stuff to another forum entirely, but there's literally no one that will have me! lol. the world's too brans-specific or multiple-choice-category. i'm never gonna color within the lines...

anyway...

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2018 at 5:50pm
i have a decent collection of 01 chassis suspension parts here, but they all show the same wear patterns, and are also by today's standards intolerably sloppy. when i started i figured the uppers would be OK, with my lube-able cross-bolt fix and that i would be wanting to ditch or worry about the lower arms...

well it didn't turn out that way. the upper arm pivot, that involves the threaded casting, is to me not usable. i suspect that the threads are not National Coarse, though they are 5/8-11. it's pretty close, but too much clearance. it may actually be intentionally rattley, to allow *some* grease to get in there, but we know that didn't work.

the lower arms worked out ok, in the end. i'd bought the two "trunnion repair kits" that were on ePay all summer and fall, one in canada one in sweden, about $100 each. those turned out to be a really good thing. though the vertical threads were fine, the trunnion nuts on mine were worn, and this came with new ones. that double-threaded business is -- speaking plainly -- stupid and bad engineering. it accomplishes what i assume is the goal -- double-redundant failure proof -- but there are far, far better and just as cheap ways to do it. even for 1960. clearly this system got built incrementally. it's no surprise that this was the first thing AMC ditched for 63! i know how to assemble them, and i still needed to shim one side out about 0.010" so that it wouldn't bind. that means something wore, or bent. yes, i am being very exacting here, this is probably far closer tolerance than the factory did but it's 50+ years later.

but the lower arms are now assembled and ready to go, with soft polyurethane inner bushings and the trunnion repair kits outer.

i've been doing research on and off on replacement suspension design for a year, and it all came together a couple weeks ago. the upper arm, which i'd assumed i'd just rebuild and toss together, is being replaced.

the new upper arm solves a number of problems and adds a huge benefit at the same time --

* eliminates all of the slop and foolishness around the big casting.
* adds FULLY ADJUSTABLE ON-CAR camber
* adds a full inch of "Shelby drop" to the upper arm, to reduce understeer and hugely reduces instant-center shifting in turns.

it's so mechanically simple it's not funny. still awaiting the tubing but a rough phone pic shows the new tubular arm vs the stamped arm.




the key component here is the "1970 Ford Mustang UCA cross shaft with 1" drop" from RideTech. instead of studs, it has 5/8-NF tapped holes (which the Nash/Rambler lower arm OUGHT TO HAVE). the mounting holes RideTech part are 1/8" closer together than the Rambler part; there's plenty of metal to mill/slot each hole .0625" wider. it fits in the chassis with the factory spacers just fine and clearance is good.

in the future, when/if i wear out/break/become unhappy with the lower arms, i'm gonna do a similar build, likely with rubber-bushed pivots (no room above), use a ball-joint-plate solution, and adapt a chebby balljoint to a 63 or 64 classic/ambo steering knuckle -- which fits exactly into the upper trunnion casting....

the 63 10/80 knuckle however has a different (more vertical) angle between the "king pin" and upper pivot location. to compensate all i gotta do is make new upper arms -- two lengths of DOM 7/8" tube and foud new tube adapters, about $20/side.

bingo.





Edited by tomj - Jan/25/2018 at 7:23pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2018 at 5:53pm
oh in case it's not obvious, using heim joints on the casting means i can sock them down tight and completely eliminate the wobble. it will retain the double-redundancy (long threaded stud plus outer nuts/pins). 0.300"  "high misalignment" spacers easily clear the casting and the cross shaft.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2018 at 6:27am
The only issues with heim joints are noise and longevity. Can't do much about the noise, unless you bend the tubular arms and use a rubber (or soft urethane) bushed rod end at the body. There are now rubber boots that fit over the heim joints though! There have been rubber/metal seals (look like slightly conical washers with a metal ring in center, rubber outer) for some time -- I have those on my Jag IRS (only on axle end, RideTech rubber ends at body end -- on trailing arms), and they help, but water can still get in. They do keep 75% (just a guess!) of dust and grime out though. The boots should keep out more since it's harder for water to get in, and should muffle sound as well. Of course they do nothing for transmitted vibration.

Seals: https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/rod-end-seals?sortby=Default&sortorder=Ascending&keyword=rod%20end%20seal&kr=rod%20end%20seal

Boots: https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/rod-end-dust-boots?ibanner=SREPD4

Yes, you're in "frankenrambler territory", but still AMC powered... for now. As long as no one objects I'd leave it here in suspension though. Some of what you're doing applies to other models, at least in theory. Chassis mods are traditionally less sensitive to others than complete drivetrain/engine swaps. It's been my observation that no one really cares as much about older Rambler "foreign" engine swaps also... not like they do when swapping a "foreign" engine into a Javelin or even Hornet/Gremlin chassis. Part of the reason is that a 67+ AMC engine/trans is just as much work to swap in as anything else, whereas it's just a bolt-in to a newer chassis. That and the older engines are much more limited in aftermarket parts availability (literally just stock parts) and even stock rebuild parts are higher than later model stuff... though all AMC parts are getting harder to find and more expensive as time goes on.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2018 at 12:24pm
i'm buying the better quality one-piece rod ends with injection seats. that will help, and most of the vibration from the road should be ont he lwoer arm, but yeah, they won;t be as quiet as rubber bushings. with the Ford cross shaft i now have options though, and i can make better later if warranted. the car is already noisy, being open, so that angle doesn't matter to me. and the change to the car is incremental, meaning it will be reliable.

but even expensive rod ends are cheap compared to OEM parts! the lower arm i will definitely make rubber bushed.

i'm looking forward to the "shelby drop" improvement and the camber.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote elmusso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2018 at 1:13pm
this post has helped me and giving me more ideas about my suspension....thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/26/2018 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by elmusso elmusso wrote:

this post has helped me and giving me more ideas about my suspension....thanks


cool, thanks! what are you driving? your tiny icon pic looks like 62 big car?

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/04/2018 at 5:01pm
plugging along with the front end build. here's the RideTech cross shaft pivot bar with the holes slotted, and one side loosely mocked up showing all the relationships. i also updated the suspension calculators at http://sr-ix.com/AMC/1961-Rambler-Roadster/front-suspension/index.html. i had previously measured the parts and the chassis with the car together; with it apart i was able to get more precise measurements. the "modified" suspension is what i'm building.




here you can see the "Shelby drop". this makes a huge difference in the awful shifting of the moment center/roll center of the car.








1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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