TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
60ramblerclassic View Drop Down
AMC Fan
AMC Fan
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2013
Location: Orcutt CA
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 60ramblerclassic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1960 rambler classic 196 smokes on start up
    Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 1:46am
Hey guys. I am pretty new to this, if you haven't guessed by the title. My wife and I have a 1960 rambler that we have owned for 7 years and just love it. Its always smoked a little blue cloud on the start up since we've had it. It was just a weekend cruiser and has just 75,000 miles on it. I have started to drive it a lot more. The engine leaks oil from the valve cover gasket and the timing chain gasket and seems to burn a little oil. I pulled the plugs and number 1 cyl plug was a lil dark but not to crazy. All the other plugs looked good. It runs great once its warmed up.

I haven't done a compression test. My question is, where do I start to fix the issue? Is it possible it is just valve seals? I need some help from people that know where to start and what to do next. I'm mechanically incline enough to fix it, but I need some advice on where to start.

Thanks!
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: los angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 1531
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 2:11am
you're likely not gonna like the answer, but its time for a teardown and rebuild. if you have not yet, you absolutely must re-torque the cylinder head. if could the the source of the oily plug, if thats what it is.

when engines leak externally from all over its just age.

75,000 is nothing for a new car, but for that engine, its close to end of life. chances are, it was rebuilt once before. i personally have not seen a 195.6 ohv that wasnt rebuilt in its past. 75K miles, but half a century!


if its just a sunday driver, torque the head, check, gently, timing cover, pan bolts for looseness (overtightening will make it leak MORE) and it might just be fine as-is. the valve cover, get a new gasket, theyre still available, clean it up, adjust the valves when youre in there, and it wont leak.


while youre under the cover you can possibly stop a lot of rear of head valve cover leaks with a simple zero-cost fix. see http://195.6ohv.com/  "other minor fixes". cheap and easy!

1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
Back to Top
60ramblerclassic View Drop Down
AMC Fan
AMC Fan
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2013
Location: Orcutt CA
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 60ramblerclassic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/17/2017 at 4:43pm
Ball park, what is the cost of a full rebuild? Where do I get quality parts from?

Yeah it's a weekend town driver. I drive it a few days a week, but less than 5 miles a day. I always change and check the fluids. I know the engine is tired, but I only paid $600 buck for the old gal. I plan on fixing it up, my wife and I got hitched and used it in our wedding so it has sentimental value. I rebuilt a few engines in the past but it's been over a dozen years. I'm wondering if I could get by with a gasket change and a valve job etc etc. Thoughts?
Back to Top
60ramblerclassic View Drop Down
AMC Fan
AMC Fan
Avatar

Joined: May/16/2013
Location: Orcutt CA
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 60ramblerclassic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 2:24am
http://losangelesmachineshop.com/63-amc-rambler-196-3-2-remanufactured-engine/ They said $2400 for a rebuild. Thoughts?
Back to Top
pacerman View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jul/03/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6978
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 7:49am
You can rebuild it yourself for a lot less. Bearings and rings are still pretty common in the oversize versions you will likely need. Valves are getting scarce but will last through two or three rebuilds so they might not be needed. Pistons in the common sizes are available from Kanters or Egge Machine. You will need to pay for machining.

I would do a compression test though and tighten/ refresh the gaskets like Tom says above if there is no indication of a blown head gasket and continue to baby the engine for a while if it is a local driver. Joe
Happiness is making something out of nothing.
Back to Top
vinny View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jan/05/2012
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Points: 2015
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 10:00am
Mine got tired at 120,000 miles but it was 4 years newer than yours and that was a lot of years ago. Nonetheless I don't think your cylinder walls will be really worn out yet. I'd start with valve seals, maybe fill the crankcase with diesel fuel and idle it for about 20 minutes, or some people say use Marvel mystery oil in the crankcase, and follow all that with dribbling a can of water through the carb at fast idle. I think you will get the most gain from changing the valve seals. 

At 120 they redid the head on mine by running some knurling device through the guides, reaming them and then doing a valve grind. It was 145000 miles before it had to be re-bored.

Somehow make sure you don't have the oil pickup screen getting plugged with broken valve seal material. I think you might be able to see that through the oil drain plug hole.


Edited by vinny - Apr/18/2017 at 10:13am
Back to Top
uncljohn View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/03/2013
Location: Peoria AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 5379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/18/2017 at 10:03am
If you have never really built up an engine it is a bit of a fools mission to try to rebuild it yourself. The price quoted for a rebuilt antiquated engine of $2400.00 is not out of line with reality. This location offers crate engines from about $1600 (SBC) to numbers in the $30,000 dolor category and it gets a full rebuild along with thorough cleaning.


Crate engines
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 13094
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 7:44am
Pistons are rather high for these old engines compared to more current models -- about twice as much (around $60-65 each vs $35-40 for SBC or Jeep 4.0L replacement pistons). $2400 for a rebuild is a good price considering. If you really want to tackle it yourself, Kanter has full rebuild kits. Pull it apart and have a machine shop measure the bores before ordering pistons. I have a set of 0.040" over pistons though, PM if interested.

You can probably get by for quite a while with valve stem seals. The factory used umbrella seals, which leak some no matter what, but new umbrella seals are much better than old ones that have probably cracked up and fallen away. If you have it rebuilt have the tops of the valve guides machined for modern seals. Any machine shop should be able to do that.

The head on these things needs to be retorqued every 2-3 years or 10-12K miles. You don't have to back off all then follow the torque sequence. You can back off one bolt at a time and torque it back down to 62 ft/lbs and not worry about what order you tighten in.

Your valve cover gasket may have hardened over the years -- I'd get a new one. Then just snug it down, don't tighten the crap out of it! All that does is warp the valve cover, sometimes to the point it won't seal long even with a new gasket.

The leak from the timing chain cover is more likely the front seal. Not hard to pull the balancer and change just the seal, but may as well pull the timing cover and change the gasket and crank seal. Easier to change the seal with the cover off, and it's just a simple cover.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
andyleonard View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice


Joined: Dec/10/2016
Location: 90290
Status: Offline
Points: 44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyleonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 12:19pm
The last 2 196s I pulled down for excessive smoke both had truly rotten valve guides, not just the seals. I don't know if it's an iron guide problem but they - despite one of the motors being recently rebored with new pistons - had terrible valve/guide clearance. Compression check was excellent. Cutting the guides for teflon seals without removing the head might get you some time but give the valves a good shake when the springs are off and see what you're up against. Egge has guides for $2.

Re: leaky front seal. Don't forget you need to reinstall the balancer before the front cover is tightened up so the balancer and front cover/seal are centered. It seems people like to tighten up the front cover without using the balancer as a centering guide, then stick the balancer in and can't figure out why the seal won't last.
Back to Top
vinny View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jan/05/2012
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Points: 2015
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/20/2017 at 12:35pm
I agree with that. My guides were really worn at 120k miles. The word I was looking for earlier was broaching where they draw or push something through the guide and ream it back to standard. I don't know how good a fix that is.

With new guides do they have to drill the old ones out? I thought the original guides were all part of the head. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2012 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or