196 Crank Seal Question

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   OK. Rebuilding 196 flathead in a 58 American using a parts 196 flathead from slightly later. The gasket set for a 1958-1961 196 flathead came with a GraphTite rope rear seal. It looks like the 58 had a rope seal only in the outermost groove of the rear main cap, leaving the next groove in from the flywheel empty, and it doesn't look like it was doing much work as there were leaks everywhere. 
The newer parts motor has a main cap that's drilled through in the second groove for oil to drain back into the pan but there was a rope seal in the second groove and a 2-part regular rubber lipped oil seal #AM3219750 and #AM3219751 (although the 2 parts look identical) in the rearmost groove.

Googling this seal (Jeep and others) I get a correct bore size and width for the application (assuming you put the rope in the second groove and block the drainback hole) but an incorrect shaft size, showing the seal too big ID to grab the crank correctly.

Problemo: Both motors have been apart and were reassembled by hacks. What is the current correct treatment for the rear main?

Thanks

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andyleonard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Apprentice Joined: Dec/10/2016 Location: 90290 Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote andyleonard Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 196 Crank Seal Question Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 4:28pm
	OK. Rebuilding 196 flathead in a 58 American using a parts 196 flathead from slightly later. The gasket set for a 1958-1961 196 flathead came with a GraphTite rope rear seal. It looks like the 58 had a rope seal only in the outermost groove of the rear main cap, leaving the next groove in from the flywheel empty, and it doesn't look like it was doing much work as there were leaks everywhere. The newer parts motor has a main cap that's drilled through in the second groove for oil to drain back into the pan but there was a rope seal in the second groove and a 2-part regular rubber lipped oil seal #AM3219750 and #AM3219751 (although the 2 parts look identical) in the rearmost groove. Googling this seal (Jeep and others) I get a correct bore size and width for the application (assuming you put the rope in the second groove and block the drainback hole) but an incorrect shaft size, showing the seal too big ID to grab the crank correctly. Problemo: Both motors have been apart and were reassembled by hacks. What is the current correct treatment for the rear main? Thanks

vinny Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837	Post Options Post Reply Quote vinny Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 7:40pm
	From what I remember on a 64 the one with the hole stays open.

vinny Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837	Post Options Post Reply Quote vinny Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 7:41pm
	Mine was OHV but I doubt if that would make a difference.

pacerman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9057	Post Options Post Reply Quote pacerman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 8:23pm
	Check Tom J's website for any references he may have, but I agree with Vinny. As I recall there is only the one rope seal and I was advised that the Best Gaskets brand was best, so that is what I used and I kept the Felpro rope seal in my gasket set as a spare. Joe
	Happiness is making something out of nothing.

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 9:32pm
	if there's pics on my site, i hope they help. i dont recall, and my current engine is being built by someone else. i'll ask though what the rear seal situation is. it does have a rope seal, for sure. i think just the one. i don't recall if there's a slinger back there or not.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

andyleonard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Apprentice Joined: Dec/10/2016 Location: 90290 Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote andyleonard Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 9:46pm
	It looks like it's set up for a slinger in slot #2 but there's no way in heck to put one on the crank back there. Weird.

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/16/2017 at 10:40pm
	oh right! i remembered how its setup. the inner-most slot that looks like it wants a seal is where the "slinger", turned into the crank, runs. since the flange is on the crank butt one can't be added. it's simply a thin large diameter part of the crank, fairly roughly machined, that sits in that slot, and slings oil. it doesn't look like much but it's there between the journal and the flange.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

andyleonard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Apprentice Joined: Dec/10/2016 Location: 90290 Status: Offline Points: 138	Post Options Post Reply Quote andyleonard Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/17/2017 at 9:21am
	So the last man into this motor came up with a Jeep neoprene seal and added it to the rope all by himself. Hmmm.

74gremx Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/18/2009 Location: Adelaide, Aust Status: Offline Points: 949	Post Options Post Reply Quote 74gremx Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/17/2017 at 4:17pm

	1970 Javelin 360/727 1974 Levis Gremlin X 304/904 1964 American Convertible 1974 Matador wagon (parts) 2016 Holden Cruze Equipe 2014 Holden Colorado "Don't mistake activity for achievement".

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Mar/20/2017 at 6:20am
	Yes -- the neoprene was added and the rope in the wrong place. I wonder what that neoprene seal was for? If for a 232 it's way too big. I searched at one time for a neoprene seal that could be made to fit, but couldn't find anything the right diameter (rear crank journal diameter). Could be a Jeep F-head or flat-head four seal??? I didn't have any real old books at the time and may not have checked that one. I believe those just had a rope seal, but maybe a neoprene was made later? Rope seals are notoriously hard to get to seal real good. If you end up with just a small drip after the oil is hot consider it a success...
	Frank Swygert