195.6 balancer in too far?

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   Hello! New to forum but have acquired much needed info already on 1961-63 Americans. Thank you! Question...1963 rambler American ohv 195.6 harmonic balancer slides in to far when bolt is tightened, so much so that will contact the timing cover.  I have all necessary parts installed correctly (bolt, conical shaped washer with new rubber and serrated washer thingy, cork washer/spacer? and felt washer to protect seal from road debris. I have looked everywhere and cannot find much info as to what some of these parts actually do. Maybe someone else has had this problem?

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hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: 195.6 balancer in too far? Posted: Apr/07/2020 at 6:08pm
	Hello! New to forum but have acquired much needed info already on 1961-63 Americans. Thank you! Question...1963 rambler American ohv 195.6 harmonic balancer slides in to far when bolt is tightened, so much so that will contact the timing cover. I have all necessary parts installed correctly (bolt, conical shaped washer with new rubber and serrated washer thingy, cork washer/spacer? and felt washer to protect seal from road debris. I have looked everywhere and cannot find much info as to what some of these parts actually do. Maybe someone else has had this problem?

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/07/2020 at 11:25pm
	Hmm something else is funny there. You can't put it on too deep, it just pushes in til it stops. About half way down the page below is the order of parts for the funny balancer/pulley seal parts. https://www.sr-ix.com/AMC/195.6ohv/BLOCK/index.html It does run very close to the cover. Maybe the cover is out from the block too far? I don't know how that would be, unless you installed two gaskets (lol).
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/08/2020 at 2:53pm
	Thank you very much for response. Yes, those are the pictures I installed by. I had another balancer that when bolt was tightened to torque specs the engine wouldn't turn but it was different without all those pieces....measured the same on it's depth, just had a big flat washer and bolt. Seems that one put too much pressure against the thrust washer into the bearing thrust area. That's the one that came on this engine but cannot use anyway as it's in pretty poor shape. This one is in good shape albeit a little different but just like the one in link you sent. I know they're pretty close to timing cover but it keeps going in if bolt is anywhere near even 50lbs torque. has got me really baffled!!

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/08/2020 at 3:06pm
	Seems as tho I might have to fabricate a spacer between the end of the crank snout and where the head of the bolt is so to keep the balancer from going in to far but just enough to put the right pressure against the slinger, gear and thrust plate. maybe...dunno! Funny thrust plate in the front of engine against the balancer to regulate crankshaft end play? as opposed to in the middle like most.

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/08/2020 at 11:50pm
	Something's not right. The balancer/pulley has to be in all the way or the belts won't line up; also it will "float" in and the bolt loosen etc. I don't know why Nash/AMC made sealing the nose of the balancer so complicated. Probably they solved one-problem-at-a-time over years and years and ended up with a stack of weird fixes... allt hat went away in the new-in-1964 six... Is the engine on a stand? Or in the car? I think it would help it yous tarted from the very top -- are you building/rebuilding an engine from parts? Or just changing the timing belt in the car? Was it running until now or what? Was it a running engine torn down for freshen? From the "came with... doesn't fit" I suspect not. These are very old engines, pretty much every once I've seen, worked with, helped with, rebuilt, etc, was run to end of life, then rebuilt, then run to end of life again. This doesn't make them bad engines; it means they were workhorses run to death. ANd now, half a century later, we try to revive assorted piles of parts! They're decent engines with a collection of oddball problems, all solvable. But when they're at end-of-its-second-life they can be tough to sort out. As much info as you can give will help.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/09/2020 at 11:23am
	Thank you for response. Yes, engine is on stand. Was running in car but had spun rod bearing....rebuilt now. Reground crank, Rods resized, new bearings, timing set, standard bore still with lite hone and new rings. All parts from same engine. Have not mixed parts from two other engines I have except have tried balancer from another engine, but same year 1963. The balancer from this engine is in pretty poor shape and reaches the oil slinger/gear/thrust washer area but is not concave for the beveled washer/rubber, serrated thingy. Just a bolt with big flat washer. When the bolt is tightened the engine doesn't turn. The one I'd like to use looks good but is a little shorter by a 1/4" and does have all the correct parts. Two different balancers and neither will fit correctly. Still so confused. BTW, really like your roadster and the upgrades you have made mechanically. Bet it's a great driver.

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/09/2020 at 8:28pm
	Think I've got it. I still don't know why but had to add 7/32 of shim washers between the conical balancer washer and the crank snout. Balancer just touches slinger/gear/thrust washer. I left the cork washer/spacer thingy out as I don't know what it does anyway lol. Engine turns nicely and pulleys line up after torqueing bolt. Hope it works! Thank you tomj for the help.

tomj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/09/2020 at 9:52pm
	That's weird! It's only been 60 years, where did things have a chance to get weird? lol I'm still a bit concerned -- I'll go RTFM and stare at the pics (now you have me curious :-) but, OK the spacer prevents the bolt from pressing the pulley in too far, but with the bolt tight, can you slam the pulley in, eg. heel of each palm, or tapped w/2 lb. hammer and block of wood? ANd have it make contact? That sounds crazy (if you iaven't seen one of these apart especially :-) but I'm curious if the pulley could walk in, vibrate in, from subtle and long term force? The real question is, what is it that is supposed to stop the inward travel of the hub of the harmonic balancer onto the crank nose? I guess all along I've been rump-u-me-ing that there's a step or some sort of positive stop for the balancer, and the bolt applies torque to that. BUt I don't really know and will have to go look. I have all the parts (a crappy old balancer) if it comes to that.
	1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto 1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/09/2020 at 10:26pm
	tomj, I think I'll pull it off again tomorrow. Doesn't the balancer have to reach the slinger which puts pressure on the timing gear which also reaches the thrust washer that contacts the front bearing thrust side for correct crankshaft end play? End play was within tolerance according to TSM and Motors manual when I had the pan off before balancer was installed. Now I'm not sure I've made enuff contact to the slinger. the Thrust washer is there for a reason I'm sure and can't just flop around in the breeze. Geeze... these funky engines!

hotrod bob Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Fan Joined: Apr/07/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 23	Post Options Post Reply Quote hotrod bob Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr/09/2020 at 10:37pm
	Sorry, didn't answer your question. Yes, One balancer will slide in but will hit the timing cover before contacting the slinger. The other one bottoms out against the slinger but when torqued engine wont turn freely. Only one gasket on timing cover lol! A lot of time spent for something that should be so simple!