High Performance Engine Oil
Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=98512
Printed Date: Apr/15/2024 at 10:55pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: High Performance Engine Oil
Posted By: Rebel Machine
Subject: High Performance Engine Oil
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 11:40am
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I'm researching what type of oil to use in my supercharged Megastreet engine. After about 1,500 miles on the current naturally aspirated engine (about 460 HP) the distributor drive gears were nearly worn out. I was using Mobil1 synthetic. My assumption is since new engines don't use the old school distributor drive that oil isn't formulated to protect it. It was repaired and now running 10W 30 Brad Penn Grade 1. Now I'm finding out that doesn't protect as well as originally thought. Looking for the best oil for a 650 hp street car with a distributor driven oil pump. Found a rather long blog on many different oils and test results for them. From what I can tell Valvoline's 10W 30 VR1 conventional racing or VR1 Synthetic racing oils would suit this engine well. This is going to be my last AMC performance engine as it is simply cost prohibitive for me to go beyond or even repeat. I'd like it to be reliable and as low-maintenance as possible. Anyone have any real-world experience or results with oils in a similar engine? Thanks, -Steve- |
Replies:
Posted By: wheelz
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 11:56am
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I only use Schaeffer Oils in ALL my cars (and the lawn tractor). In the race cars I use Micron moly 30w and buy it in the 5 gallon bucket. Schaeffer IMO is simply the highest grade motor oil with superior base stocks and additive packages |
Posted By: wheelz
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 12:57pm
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Oh and one of the only oil mods I do is the small line from the sender tee to a hole above the gear in the TC for added insurance at 65psi |
Posted By: Steve Obertanec
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 2:42pm
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It doesn't sound like an oil quality issue. Many run Mobile 1 with no issues & I have run Brad Penn in my own race motors with no oil related issues. Might look into timing chain oil hole alignment & distributor/cam gear engagement? ------------- Steve Obertanec www.stevandracing.com |
Posted By: Red Devil
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 2:51pm
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The best oil is the one that keeps everything lubricated and satisfies your peace of mind. For some, that means a conventional oil with lots of ZDDP. For others, it's a synthetic of latest technology. Lots of things get blamed on oil that aren't the oil at all. Select a grade based on your assembled clearances and operating temperatures. For me, I try to select an Acea A3/B4 spec oil. Many of the popular OEM grades don't satisfy this spec. If the oil meets spec, you have good flow and proper operating temperatures, it should be good. Hope this helps, RD
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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 4:56pm
| Just a repeat of an old thread, but the Valvoline VR1 10W40 has better cold point pour and the same additives your engine needs. The VR1 10W30 is good also but the VR1 10W40, specification wise, is a better oil for your build. |
Posted By: wheelz
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 5:23pm
| I was a huge Valvoline fan since the 80s. Sadly it is not the same even in VR form. Schaefer is far superior in every way. Buy a quart and just look at it. Btw when I assemble a new engine I coat the dist/cam gear with dry Film CRC moly and then douse it in moly graphite paste. This ensures lube when a new engine is getting the oil to the top. Honestly I have never lost a dist/cam gear and have hard time understanding why folks are shredding gears |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 5:24pm
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Seems like you had underlying issues with gears and clearances. Mobil 1 is a good oil, and i use it in my engines. If concerned about your new build, give Joe Gibbs oil a try. There has been a lot of discussion on Honda threads back in 2011, when full synthetic was becoming the norm from the factory. Plus the myth of high lithium break in oil being a full term break in process beyond 3k. Many drove it a full year until maintanence minder kicked in. None the less, a racing engineer had a break down of the best oils and why. At one time Penzoil was the best over the counter oil for performance use, and kept up over the well known performance names. Joe Gibbs has great qaulities, and his testing shows ZDDP additives not being best for high loads and heat stress. I will search for the link, it is very informative and covers just about every oil known, and would be impossible to figure out key differences on your own or here say. Should have a link soon. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 6:25pm
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This is a long oil list with specs, which is linked at the bottom of Drew's main page of his thread, created way back on one of the Honda threads. Haven't looked at it in years, so i expect it to be either updated or poof! https://www.driveaccord.net/forums/15-7th-generation/338442-drews-quest-toughest-motor-oil-something-like.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.driveaccord.net/forums/15-7th-generation/338442-drews-quest-toughest-motor-oil-something-like.html I did a quick look... if your planning to run 0w-30, Gulf Competition oil ranks pretty high on heat drop off. Which is key on good oils. Once you get into the high oil temps, great oils fall short. If you are running 40w you options are limited in the better and more afforable options. Oddly enough for thoughs running 40w, Mobil 1 euro spec is pretty impressive. Great ranking for over the counter oil, if available in your location. If not online shops should carry it. 0W40 Mobil 1 “FS” European Car Formula, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, API SN, synthetic = 127,221 psi ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: wheelz
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 7:21pm
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Mobil 1 is a good oil and I have used it in my 2 GM LS3 powered race cars a C6 Vette and a 2001 Trans Am but I switched to 5/30 Schaeffer. Gibbs oil is repackaged and he hangs his name on it to sell it and it might be good oil but I aint buying it cause I doubt there is any engineering behind it beyond his name The Schaeffer oils have not only superior base stocks and PAOs but added soluble moly MoS2 and penetro 90. No comparison to any other race type oils on the market and the paraffinic 30w in the AMCs clings with a green film that is very noticeable and sexy I might add. Does the OP say if they used an aftermarket TC?
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Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 9:34pm
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Mobil 1 0W40 is OK but their Formula 0W40 FS. The problem with Mobil 1 is you have to look at the specific Mobil 1 xxx. Here is the list: https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf I like the specs on the Formula FM or Turbo Diesel Truck 5W40. Personal opinion. |
Posted By: JGRANTAMX
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 10:13pm
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I am surprised Amsoil or Royal Purple hasn't come up on this thread, I know everybody has some brand of oil or another they are loyal to, I tend to believe what I see. Years ago I went to a local machine shop/engine builder that does CNC machining, this shop builds a lot of Saturday night special pro-series engines and the builder showed me engines that run on most of the available oils, only the Amsoil engines looked like new at the end of the season and needed nothing but routine freshening up, he stated one engine had over 6000 laps on it and still didn't need anything also showed almost no measurable wear. I have a friend that races stock cars his engines were built by that shop, my friend backed the car into the wall one week and broke the rear main bearing cap he didn't know until after the next week of racing a complete feature race, his engine had almost no oil pressure he thought it was an issue with the gauge yet the engine ran fine and showed no wear because of Amsoil. I have been running Amsoil in everything I own with Wix or NAPA filters for 20+ years and will use nothing else. By the way that engine builder said Mobil1 was garbage and showed me an engine that ran it he was right. I haven't rebuilt my AMC engine yet but already know what oil will be in it. J
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Posted By: Photon440
Date Posted: Feb/10/2019 at 11:49pm
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I too am an Amsoil fan. When my wife's Plymouth Laser with a Mitsubishi 4 banger blew its timing belt, I had to have the head off because of bent valves. With 250,000 km. on the engine, it was very clean inside and still showed the factory honing marks on the cylinder walls. Had used Amsoil since 6,000 km onward. ------------- Faster is Better |
Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 2:06am
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What is wrong with Brad Penn (now Penngrade 1) oil? I've been thinking about switching to it myself. Currently using Rotella T 10W30. ------------- 1955 Packard 1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 5:56am
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My link shows Amisol is tops, and with detsils as to why. Others come off pretty good as well. Just the big question made, was not to break the piggy. Top oils are expensive, and may not be worth the investment on a street driven car ovrr other brands. I know the link i gave is huge on the topic, and can loose some in that it is written out kinda like billd would expain. I doubt any street driven car would benifit on the best of the best oils, as demands on the engine are light compared to full track time demands. Though anyone will change to the proper oil before doing so, as it is common sense. You may find the list of oils eye opening, as there are a few over the counter oils thst come close to being just as good as racing oils. And the only issues with use, is hey have a higher drop off with higher heat range. The Mobil 1 oil is not common in the states, but may be found in Canada and Mexico. Like explained in a previous reply, not all Mobil 1 oils are made the same. You must have a keen eye and specifically obtain what was tested. Even oil weight selected6 can effect the same make of oil, as the engineer explains in details with additives and components jn the oil make up, that may effect how ut performs. Some perform better with additives some dont gain much all. I recommend reading through the long bits, as to see how oils stack up, just because one is better, does not mean the few below it are not as good for a street / strip driver. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: JGRANTAMX
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 6:24am
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Amsoil signature oil is good for 25K at a cost of about $60 per 5 quart oil change + filter, I don't know anyone who drives their classic ride more than that in a year. Not having to crawl under my daily ride more than twice a year (Amsoil recommends changing the oil filter at 6 months) saves me time and hassle ends up with a comparable cost and the best protection. I run Amsoil in almost everything cars, lawn mower, snow thrower also use their 2 cycle oil. The best way to solve a problem is to not have one, saving a few bucks on low performance oil doesn't seem to pan out when it comes to distributor gears. J |
Posted By: farna
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 6:37am
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Check the cam gear and make sure it's delivering oil to the distributor gear as it should. That is the #1 reason for chewed up dizzy gears. Make sure you have a MATCHED SET of gears, preferably used AMC issue gears, but especially aftermarket replacements need to be a matched set. The added oil line will help, but corrected cam gear oiling is usually more than enough. If you have high pressure/high volume oil pump mods that puts added pressure on the drive gear also. Not really needed in an AMC -- the stock pump provides more than enough oil and pressure with just some cover clearance tweaking. ------------- Frank Swygert |
Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 7:01am
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I believe this is the page 304-dude is referring to: http://theamcforum.com/FORUM/forum_topics.asp?FID=2&title=amc-v8-engine-repair-and-modifications" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/FORUM/forum_topics.asp?FID=2&title=amc-v8-engine-repair-and-modifications I've read through this and there's a lot of information there. The author makes the point (many times) that ZDDP isn't the only thing to consider as far as wear is concerned. "Film strength/load carrying capability/shear resistance psi value" is the measure of wear protection according to the blog. Some of the Amsoil oils as well as 5W30 Joe Gibbes Driven LS30 performance synthetic looks pretty good too. -Steve-
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Posted By: Rebel Machine
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 7:05am
The set that got chewed up was a matched set of original AMC gears. The only variable between that engine and the previous one was the type of oil used and the timing case was an aftermarket piece that was machined by an AMC vendor. This is the ONLY engine I've had with this problem. After I assemble an engine I prime the oiling system and look through the fuel pump window to make sure the distributor drive gear has oil flowing out of it. -Steve- |
farna wrote:Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 7:40am
Yep, but i did reply in this topic with the same link within another oil thread, its located at tge end of the opening page on the link. Its an on going oil test that has some oils no longer being produced, which still are part of the list. So its a huge compilation of sorts. Just because one brand may seem as standard, there are key differences in each product subset. I never knew that Mobil 1 has more options off the shelf than what is advertised or usually picked at the store. Believe it or not a high milage oil gets pretty good score for not being a performance oil. Trouble is you must keep within the heat range. As it and others will drop in protection by 28%. Just keep point that a brand makes a good known product and a not so known excellent product that may look similar by packaging. Example the new Penzoil Platinum is not the same as the old Platinum, which was one of the tops on the over the counter oil. I had two 5 quart jugs that i purchased for our cars. One was 30w and the other was 20w, only the 20w was the the original platinum, while the 30w was the new oil. They looked almost identical but the new oil had a logo for the blend to show it was not the same as old type. Though it was a one time deal, so that said, i am back to Mobil 1, which actually runs cleaner with a 1 micron filter used in conjuction. Purolator finally fixed their product line... some time in 2011 or so they had issues with their top of the line filters. STP, Mobil 1 and Wix still are good 1 micron filters. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 9:32am
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I am finding hard to get a current specification on the Penngrade 1. As 304-Dude points out the manufacturers are changing packaging and formulas all the time. The ksi or psi pressure rating of the oil is very important. But a 60's to 80's "muscle car" has typically 100,000 psi contact pressure between cam lobe and lifter. Add higher load springs and the pressure rises proportionally. Modern overhead cams alleviate these high pressures by eliminating the the valve train friction/multiplication and increasing surface contact area. More area and proportionally less load. The ZDDP is an anti scuffing compound that embeds into the steel. High load pressure oil is tested by direct pressure before it allows metal to metal contact. A camshaft rotates and is wiping oil off the lobe as it ramps up to maximum lift. High shear rated oil will resist oil wedge dispersion. The anti scuffing compound is to keep the separation of metal to metal contact IF the oil wedge has been removed. Yes, use the higher pressure rated, high shear rated oil. If you have modified your engine with higher valve lift, best go for oils with known higher ZDDP or invest in a roller cam setup.
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Posted By: 304-dude
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 9:56am
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They guy who is doing the oil tests, points out cam lobe wipe out even on high additive oils. His rule of thumb is the lowest weight oil that does not drop oil pressure for the engine build. Also some of the higher rated oils dont have additives, but he does test various oils with additives added. Its quite a read, and can make oils a bit clearer to understand and decide on for personal use. Not saying what oil is over kill... just be aware, to use a race oil on a street car, the benifits may never be seen on your daily driver, while many over the counter oils are just as good until the heat range becomes at the upper scale and beyond of operation. Outside of an oil presure gauge, a good oil temp gauge is just as critical for monitoring your engine's operation. Only if the guy would shortened up his expertise and opinions, to allow the bits of information to be more clear in facts finding. ------------- 71 Javelin SST body 390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
Posted By: LakesideRamblin
Date Posted: Feb/11/2019 at 12:52pm
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Lucas SAE 10W40 (10683) Hot Rod & Classic High Zinc Engine Oil. Run in my 360 street motor. Not a straight race engine but beefed up. I am in a mild So. Cal. climate but it works great with no issues after 1 1/2 years and I pound the thing. Maybe the high zinc content is the key?
------------- LakesideRamblin 69 Rambler 360 73 Javelin 360 "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." T. Roosevelt |